Discuss: Fencing Israel

It is very easy to steal someone’s land if you can convince yourself they are sub-human or following a “Dark Ages” philosophy.  Indeed, that is the way it is done.  Weren’t Native Americans put on reservations because they were nothing but wild savages who needed to give way to civilized, Christian people?  What scares me is America and Israel’s hubris with regard to Arabs and Moslems.  Tell me, Iris, what could be more “Dark Ages” than the belief by many Jews and Christians that God told them through a book written over 2,000 years ago that a certain piece of land (inconveniently settled by someone else) was meant for only Jews to live on?  These holy wars/ethnic wars won’t end until we recognize our own prejudices as well as those of the other side.

Whatever your view of the “Book written over 2,000 years” ago, its claim to the land is the first. Now I do not want to see the Arab inhabitants of Palestine dispersed any more, and I hope for a Palestinians state to which they can return.

I heard a Palestinian publisher speak last night of the cooperation he gets from Israeli sources, and he is a Palestinian nationalist who is working for a Palestinian state. He seemed to realize that “fences” can be taken down easily after they’re constructed.

I am not happy with the political class in Israel which seems to have an abundance of politicians but a dearth of statesmen (or “statespeople"). However, whatever conception of the Native Americans was prevalent among the settlers of the U.S., Israelis are well-aware of the richness of Muslim Arab society, and knows it has a face, more hidden these days, that should be honored if not emulated.

Palspal,

The religions of the book have been at it since long, long before the turn of the century.  Let’s face it: When any group of people thinks it has a stranglehold on the truth, this will always be the end result.  What now has taken the shape of a conflict for resources cannot be viewed in a vacuum.  Let’s not forget that every one of the Old Testament religions has a long history of persecuting even those within its ranks who see the humanity of the other side.  Israel is certainly doing most of the killing these days, but that hasn’t always been the case.  And the memories of the righteous are long and rigid.

Iris - Put the Peters book down - better yet, throw it out.  The book is a hoax, Joan Peters has long been discredited. No serious scholar, or in fact, any scholar of the Middle East, uses Joan Peters. She cooked her numbers.  That’s why we have heard virtually nothing from her since. She was exposed. Thus, any argument that sources her is by definition flawed. So if you are going to continue to use her material, don’t mention her name.  She’s a kook.

Jerry - As I stated before, Israel has NOT left Gaza - in fact, Israel invades Gaza on a continuous basis - as it does the West Bank.  The United Nations OFFICIALLY regards Gaza as Israeli occupied - still - and with good reason.  Israel withdrew its settlers so it could have free rein in making sure Gaza is a failed enterprise.  You MUST know that Israel and the US (Elliot Abrams - arch-Zionist) agreed to spend whatever they must to insure that there was civil war between Fatah (the old enemy, suddenly now the ‘good Arabs’) and Hamas.  Abrams got his civil war, but his side lost.  And let’s not forget that Hamas was elected in certified free elections.

Israel has done nothing that Palestinians should be thankful for.  Unless one suffers from Stockholm Syndrome one does not thank ones oppressors.  Israel does not belong in Gaza - nor does it belong in the West Bank - so a 40 year occupation is not something to be thanked.  Israel’s only duty is to pick up and go home to Israel.

Hamas is a political party answerable to the Palestinian people.  They have no obligation to recognize Israel - certainly no more obligation than Israel has to recognize Hamas.  There is no precedent in history for a state requiring advance recognition in order to negotiate.  Besides, to recognize Israel is to recognize Palestinian dispossession of their own country.

There was no Muslim occupation of ‘Israel.’ In fact, there was no such thing as an Israeli until 1948.  Before then, it was Palestine, and before that, Canaan.  Yes, there was an ancient Israel and Judea in the mix - but that grants no exclusive rights to land - never mind a right to carry out genocide.

As far as borders go, the international position expressed repeatedly, is an Israel behind pre-67 borders. The balance is Palestine.  The position you are taking is to create a Jewish waqf in as much of Palestine as possible.  And since that land is held in perpetuity for Jews, you are admitting that your position is precisely the same as that you accuse Hamas of taking.  Go figure.

As far as being there on the ground - I’m there on the ground frequently - I see what is going on.  Israelis and their supporters rarely get to see what’s on the ground there, one, because they don’t want to; and two, because they get steered to Jewish-held areas.

That Israel has not known one day of peace since 1948 is because they did not come in peace - they came to take the land just as all colonizers do - and with absolutely no regard for the native natural people of the land.  Israel planned and carried out genocide even before the Brits left.  Israel has killed between 30 to 60 thousand Palestinians in over the decades. Some Israelis have died as a consequence.  But that is the price that Israelis and their supporters apparently feel must be paid for Erez Israel.

There are a few basics you have to remember.  The Palestinians were there when the Zionists arrived. Israel has been carrying out genocide since it was the Yishuv. And the entire world (maybe not Micronesia or the Marshall Islands?) has stated unequivocally that the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is illegal.  It’s long past time that Israel ended the world’s last Apartheid rule and removed itself from the world’s last certified illegal occupation.

Those are the facts.

Jerry - Whether Hebrews arrived from Ur or Egypt or even if they emerged out of an existing Canaanite population - they have no first claim to the land.  There is no such thing - no Divine Right to the land.  The ancestors of the Palestinians were on the land when the Hebrews arrived, when most Jews left, and when the Zionists colonized. In other words, the Palestinians have been on the land all along - at least until their removal via Zionist force.  It is this presence as a settled people in this land that gives Palestinians every right to be there.

To Jerry, Iris, Ben, palspal:
I recommend a truce for now.  We have said our pieces.  I hope we haven’t alienated whatever dwindling audience we might have for this thread.  I hope we can find common ground on this planet soon.  Violence is not the answer, no matter who fires the first or last shot.  Neither are walls a solution, if they are built to wall in an injustice - not to start the argument all over again…

Ben - This conflict is not about religion.  This conflict is about land, about power, about sovereignty.  There were a small number of Jews living in Palestine before the Zionists arrived. They lived in relative peace with their Arab neighbors of either religion.  It is the introduction of the political entity of Zionism at the turn of the last century that is the genesis of the problem.  That the Palestinians and Jews were in some major conflict before that is just mythology.  What went down after the Zionists arrived has no connection to the Biblical era.  There is no record of Palestinians killing Jews before the current conflict.  If you must resort to the Bible, Jews often claim that God commanded the Hebrews to slaughter all the other tribes.  That they failed to do so has no bearing on today’s conflict.