Discuss: Fencing Israel

That Jews have a culture distinct from European and Muslim cultures is true - but only more or less.  By definition, all cultures are distinct to some degree.  Having grown up in the city partially comprised of the largest Jewish population in the world I can safely say the differences between me and secular New York Jews were largely of a class nature. American Jews are a distinct breed from Israelis - and American Jews have a keen eye for their commonalities and differences. Mizrahi Jews certainly have a different history and culture from Ashkenazis that extends all the way to scripture - never mind diet, music and approach to life (are they even Jews the Ashkenazis wondered?). None of this entitles anyone to exclusive rights over a land already inhabited (never mind in perpetuity).

Regarding the exodus of Jews out of the Muslim countries, that was in some measure a cooperative effort by the Arab states & Israel (whose European population desperately needed those other Jews on the farms and the frontier. As you are no doubt familiar with, the Lavon Affair and the Mossad synagogue bombings in Iraq were part of the Israeli effort to sour relations between Mizrahis and their home countries.  Perhaps even more importantly, once European Jews had established an outpost in land that had been part of the larger Arab nation, and had done so violently, it was hardly surprising that their native Jews were looked upon suspiciously inasmuch as Israel was actively urging aliyah.
Be that as it may, there is no connection to the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, other than that many Mizrahis were the beneficiary of that act. In fact, the two issues were divorced by Israel and the PA at Taba.

As for not enjoying complete freedom in Iran - who does? And if minorities suffer worse, it may not just be Jews who do so.

Group identities do change over time - the arrival of Islam likely being the most profound for the Palestinians.  But such change is true of all groups, including Jews. Among others changes, the creation of a Western atheist Jew (an ethnicity sans faith) is a phenomenon probably thought oxymoronic in the past - or maybe just moronic. And certainly the Diaspora is fundamental to historical Jewish identity (but for the few who stayed)- what a change that was!. So things change - and none of it justifies population removal (exile!) and replacement.
As for borders, I certainly cannot take a more radical position than the Palestinians themselves. What would be the point! The Palestinian position is a return to the pre-67 borders, and one cannot honestly ask this population to settle for less. But as you admit to a fondness for ethnic purity (where have we seen that before?), perhaps you are willing to throw in the Galili to bring Jewish Israel up to maybe the 90% mark? Would that not be worth it?

Its not really that I think atheism is moronic - I was just playing off the word oxymoronic - its just that to the Orthodox hierarchy in Israel, secular Jews are not really Jews at all.

But getting to the point of your remark (which as I pointed out earlier is just once more reducing the simplistic to the inane - and repeating it does not make it any more true), that Palestinians don’t love their children, the same can be said of Israelis but more completely so.  After all, while very few Palestinians strap on bombs and go into Israel to kill, the vast majority of Israelis have taken up arms and left their country to kill - high school grads, no less.  Talk about a culture of death!

So when Jews talk about ‘never again’ they leave out the part about it applying only to Jews. The message for the Palestinians and other neighbors - repeatedly transacted - is ‘yet again.’ Just do the numbers. How much of Israel do the Palestinians occupy? How much of Palestine does Israel occupy?  How many Israelis have been killed and maimed by Palestinians? How many Palestinians have been killed and maimed by Israelis?  How many divisions do the Palestinians have, F-16s, helicopter gunships, Abrams tanks, missiles, cluster bombs, phosphorus bombs, atom bombs?  And the Israelis? 

Why don’t you just take your settlers and go home. You have a country, enjoy it.

This is Amnesty International’s report on Occupied Palestine for 2007 (Just released)

The human rights situation in the Israeli Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) remained dire. Israeli forces killed more than 370 Palestinians, destroyed more than 100 Palestinian homes and imposed ever more stringent restrictions on the movement of Palestinians. In June, the Israeli government imposed an unprecedented blockade on the Gaza Strip, virtually imprisoning its entire 1.5 million population, subjecting them to collective punishment and causing the gravest humanitarian crisis to date. Some 40 Palestinians died after being refused passage out of Gaza for urgent medical treatment not available in local hospitals.
 
Most Gazans were left dependent on international aid for survival but UN aid agencies complained that the Israeli blockade made it difficult for them to provide the much needed assistance. In the West Bank, the Israeli authorities continued to expand illegal settlements and build a 700-km fence/wall in violation of international law. Impunity remained the norm for Israeli soldiers and Israeli settlers who committed serious abuses against Palestinians, including unlawful killings, physical assaults and attacks on property. Thousands of Palestinians were arrested, most of whom were released without charge. Those charged with security-related offences often received unfair trials before military courts. Some 9,000 Palestinian adults and children remained in Israeli jails, some of whom had been held without charge or trial for years. Attacks by Palestinian armed groups killed 13 Israelis (see Palestinian Authority entry).

Sorry for a dumb question, but I really can’t get, what IEET is?…