Discuss: World at Gunpoint

I first realized that the true source of the contagion was industrial civilization about 20 years ago. I had been a professional activist up till then, and for some periods since then, but never have I heard one person—not one, including you—offer even a glimmer of a “plan” that would reasonably lead to stopping it. Many books have pointed to the real problem and urged, as you do, that we all must do “something”, eg. “Ishmael,” but no one has offered any plan to change course. Neither do you. I’m ready to do whatever it takes. Just come up with I plan. I’ve tried, and I can’t. The best minds on the planet have tried. Not one has pointed to a way to eliminate “industrial civilization.”

We could start to eliminate industrial civilization by learning to live without. I know you can’t do it 100%. Purity needs to be eliminated from your thoughts because it’s the path to inaction. Just make a start.

Reduce your work hours and spend your extra time working in a community garden. Rip out your lawn and plant your garden there. Start a neighborhood foodshed to share the results of your garden and your seeds. Eat real food and not mass-produced food.

Learn some kind of skill you can share with others so that your neighbors and you can start to become less dependent upon the work of faraway Chinese labor. Barter more. Volunteer more.

Don’t have any more babies and with the children you do have, try to meet their needs without so much dependence on industrial society. Make them walk or ride bikes to school. The only reason you think it’s so dangerous is because all the other parents are driving like maniacs to the same school. If you all just quit doing it, it would be safe again.

Drive less, walk more, ride a bicycle once in a while. Imagine the world after the crash and think about what it would be nice to have in place already, what skills it might be good to know, and start working on them now.

Industrial civilization only exists to meet our needs. It has convinced you that it’s the only way to get your needs met. It has even created new needs you didn’t realize you had. Take a very long walk in nature sometime, a couple thousand miles ought to do it, and you’ll learn very quickly what is truly necessary for happiness.

I agree with comment #14, in that we, the human race, ARE nature. However, it is not true that the entire human species is responsible for killing off the mega fauna where ever humankind has set foot on a new continent. Native Americans, although not a perfect culture, have not done this. The same goes for most indigenous peoples.

I believe Jared Diamonds book, Guns Germs & Steel makes some interesting points about how our species has a propensity for exploitation when those “resources” are available to a creature with our intelligence and so on. So it would seem none of this is our fault. Did those early civilizationists just do what came natural to them?

Did we have a choice all along? When it comes to our ingenuity it seems the answer is no. However when looking at their colonization, occupation, greed, gluttony, wars, authoritarianism and so on one must admit that humans have always had a choice in these matters. And so even though humans had a propensity for manipulating nature they didn’t have to bring it all the way to what we see today - but that was their choice.

And so now we come to find that this thing we call Civilization (which I believe is the result of a psychosis some humans suffer from)is insane, and indeed Extremist. I’d go as far as saying it’s an Extremist Cult we are each born into and thus making it hard to look at objectively.

This is why Jensen appears to be himself an Extremist, for his advocacy of violence (and non-violence) in defense of the Earth and nonhumans. The truth is he is very much like anyone who has awakened to the fact of their cults extremism.

Although I’m sure you know what makes Civilization an Extremist Cult. I’m going to point a few of them out for anyone who might think otherwise: There is an obvious hierarchy with people at the top who feel they have a monopoly on violence and the members at the lower ends of this hierarchy are for the most part ok with granting them this power.

Another example of extremist behavior: 1)Over production of things that are not necessary for human survival, to the point that we run out of the resources needed to make such pointless things.2) Forcing assimilation onto peoples living beyond the context of our culture. 3) Taking animals from their environment and placing them on display for our enjoyment.
4) members of this cult experience a dependency on it, as the cult has made it a point to not teach alternative ways of life… This list could go on for a very long time…

So, yes, what I am saying is that Jensen is right and we must learn to look at this culture from beyond its context. I am actually working on a novel about just that (see my URL link). I do not believe violence is the only answer but when you look toward nature you will find that animals do not hesitate to use violence to defend that which they love. Just as our Extremist Cult hasn’t hesitated to use violence to keep us and all who oppose it in-line, along with using violence as a means to obtain more resources. The mere fact that you and I drive a car, or use ANY oil in our daily lives means we depend on this violence as a way of life.

Jensen is by no means saying that violence is the only answer. He’s just saying that it has its place in resistance, a real resistance. You can vote against drilling offshore (and everything else that’s killing the planet) all you want, its not going to stop them - but if someone actually goes and physically stops them by skipping all the too-slow politics (in a self-serving system of liars)and using some violent means - they are taking a real stance, they are involved in a true resistance (yet they require the support of people who are not willing to use violence.)

#203—you say Jensen advocates violence in defense of the earth, along with non-violence. I didn’t pick up that he advocated anything but asking the proper question. Beyond that, he didn’t proscribe any actions in particular.

And that’s the problem. Nobody has come up with an idea for HOW to stop it. Jensen isn’t saying anything new. The reason most people don’t bother asking the proper question is because so far, no one has a clue about HOW to answer it—what exactly will stop the rampage?

#204: If you read Endgame (Vol 1&2) it will be clear to you. I totally agree that Jensen isn’t saying anything new. I’m sure he’s aware of that too. I think that’s why he points to people like John Livingston, and others who have been spreading the warning. One way or another it will stop, but at this point- anything that will stop it is going to bring much suffering. But the more we are prepared the easier it will be. Michael C. Ruppert is working on a Lifeboat project.

Do any of you people even bother to check if this guy is just making it up? Because if you look in the back of his books you will never find a citation of a peer reviewed journal article, you know those things that are the basis of the way that the scientific community publishes its findings.
He only sites newspaper articles and other books by like minded individuals who also don’t site a reputable scientific journal.
Where are the mass balance equations that describe the loss of top soil to eolian process? Where is the data that indicates that we are above carrying capacity? All he does is repeat “it’s so obvious, and if you don’t agree you are in denial”. He offers nothing, brings no data to the discussion. Jensen is an idiot with no understanding of chemistry, biology, ecology, geology, and the scientific method in general. And you all follow behind, so assured that he is right without actually checking for any relevent data.

Objectively codifiable support for a conclusion what’s that?