Discuss: Forget Shorter Showers

Well Brian if we look at the fall of the Berlin Wall, we see that it came of its own, as an auto-implosion, because people did not support their government anymore, and that government was so rotten it couldn’t function anymore. It looks like these two conditions are arising faster and faster in our own country. If many people think like you do, we may soon have enough dissatisfied people who do not support their government anymore, and Wall Street seems intent on pushing us into another crisis. As they predict themselves, we can expect a crisis every 4 to 8 years. So just wait and see, how the next crisis will disrupt our entire society to the point where Wall Street may fall like the Berlin Wall. Our job now is to construct an alternative structure and network that can then be used as a safety net and/or as a basic momentum for building a new society.

I agree with his point about being more of an activist.  One thing that I disagreed with was how he made simple living seem so minute.  The industrial economy is a problem, yes, but simple living is definitely the first step in taking down this system.  I feel like if we lived more simply- consumed less, drove less, etc, then it would have a concentric effect on our industrial system.  He didn’t go into specific detail about the industrial systems, but certain systems could deteriorate if we used less.  For example let’s use the clothing/ textile industry.  The shirt I am wearing was made in Mexico, so if I didn’t consume this shirt that would be one less shirt the factory made, thus one less shirt that had to be transported (less carbon dioxide emission).  If this caught on, I believe it would have a profound effect on that specific system.  This could be applied to anything, toys, electronics, furniture, etc.  In Anne Leonard’s Story of Stuff we explored the damage caused by being a nation of consumers.  She explains problems like mountaintop removal, cutting trees, and killing ecosystems.  She explains how most of the stuff we consume is designed for the dump.  Another issue she explains is how much waste we actually make (4.5 pounds per day).  So I do agree with Derrick Jensen when he explains the industrial economy as a main issue, but I don’t think he has explored the ripple effect that simple living could create.  He brings up examples of activist opposed to: Hitler, Tsarist prisons, Voting Rights Act, and Civil Rights Act, but if you don’t think simple living is a solution, what is?  If he wants people to be more active, then spreading the idea of consuming less would definitely be a great start.  We as individuals can’t do much by ourselves, but if simple living was a new way of life, we would see change.

I believe there is a huge disconnect here between the “industrial” and “us”—the industrial civilization is completely driven by our consumption of goods and services. Whether we are “to blame” or not for that consumption (OK…advertising play a role)...if we all stop consuming, then at least one leg of the stool supporting the industrial complex falls. I believe we need BOTH personal change and activism toward social/political change. AND WE NEED POPULATION REDUCTION NOW!!!

I loved Jensen’s article, and I’ll recommend it to others. I will say, though, that any political activist working to radically change the deadly, oppressive grip the predatory capitalist system has on the environment (and every other concern) would be wise to live simply (such as, for example, taking shorter showers), if only to deflect distracting, self-righteous criticisms such as those the climate-change-deniers level against Al Gore for his energy-hogging estate and lifestyle.

Everybody has a point here: reducing our consumption on a personal and industrial level (which go hand in hand) is a necessity. The elephant in the room is that Capitalism is ruled by High Finance, not manufacturing.  In 2008 the 5 biggest banks (think especially Goldman Sachs) have literally high-jacked the Government by figuring out how to receive trillions of $ with no strings attached and be ruled under special exemptions which give them unmatchable competition and power. They now use this formidable power to funnel our tax money into their pockets—think how they get 3% interest on the money they get from the Feds at close to 0% . Or think how they can bring entire nations down to their knees (like Iceland and Greece) just by playing with their adjustable debt rates. This Wall-Street mafia casino has little to do with manufacturing anymore and is utterly anti-Constitutional. So why don’t we demand to be governed by the DEMOCRACY described in our Constitution? Then we might be able to reign on capitalism itself. The 2 are not necessarily the same. I vote YES to Democratic Capitalism —which could be organized in a Green fashion—and NO to Totalitarian Capitalism a la Goldman Sachs whose sole purpose is its own greed and power, even if it means the extermination of life.

‘...industrial[mafioso]economics lives by getting n forgetting—life-based* economics lives by giving n forgiving’ - anonymous.

*may refer to David Korten ‘Living economics’

Democracy is so Greek! it belongs in the museum—awaiting the dictatorship LOVE randy dandy haha…

For an antipodean view of simple living see Dr Ted Trainer site http://www.arts.unsw.edu.au/tsw/

complexity increases exponentially
the more complexity the lesser usage
the more complex a technology gets the faster it causes disadvantages
it is impossible to solve problems without making the world more complex
complexity reach a level where we can not solve our problems
the need for solutions do not increase gradually
material and intellectual complexity stick together
economies without co–evolutionarity are vulnerable and inefficient
complexity are an autonomous process that can not be controlled
increased complexity can only be opposed by equally increased complexity
the increase of complexity reaches a ceiling and collapses either caused by autocollapse, inner imbalance collapse or outer imbalance collapse
complexityimbalances will explode
increased complexity creates increased polarization
outdated technologies creates prosperity
happiness is a paradoxical state of mind between security and liberty
& humanity are since long not being any happier despite the ever expansion, the exploitation and the growth
so really – what’s the point

very well put ditlev palm…and to that [the complexes of complexity] i rest my case.

hope something or someone does the right thing for the gulf oil spill…