Discuss: Duty Dodgers

Mike, thanks for the response. Buber’s “Thou” is not quaint; it may even be accusatory. But it is a stepping into relation with another, not a rejection of him. Before dismissing Buber, you must read “I and Thou,” and more if you are able. As a Jew, Buber knew something about confronting demons; it’s the nature of the confrontation that matters.

What is the opposite of capitalism; what is its successor to be? I have a sense that you may have a ready answer, and I’d like to know it.  And what is the opposite of magic?  Science as we’ve been practicing it?

Hello Henry—It is true that I have not read Buber, but I have some idea of what he means.  Rather than treat others as “things” we should remember that each person however flawed is ultimately a manifestation of God.  Similar to the Hindu greeting “namaskar”, or I salute the divinity in you.  Good enough, but it won’t be sufficient to stop greedy short sighted capitalists from building incredibly expensive (if one includes the externalized costs) nuclear plants (that Brad was blithely recommending).  A little politeness is interpreted by these types as a weakness to be exploited. 

In your eagerness to defend what Brad was putting out, you wandered into what I consider to be an irrelevant debating tactic of characterizing his critic (me) as heartless and unspiritual. Nice try.  If you can’t attack the substantive arguments, on to the ad hominem stratagems.  Why not launch into a full on defense of capitalism?  Because it won’t hold water, and you know it.  I fully expect now to hear from you in the wounded voice of one who has been cruelly and unjustly misunderstood.  What a waste of time.

As a veteran of college bull session debates, I am also familiar with the tactic of throwing your opponent on the defensive with shots like “define your terms”.  The discussion we are hoping for in these pages is more important than a sophomoric ego game of one-upmanship.  Next time try to come up with ideas relating directly to the real issues we are trying to explore here.  BTW I am not mad at you, just a little disappointed.

Mike:  Again, thanks for engaging with me.  I certainly wouldn’t characterize you as “heartless and unspiritual” —you’ve clearly got heart and passion for this fight, recognize the stakes for human and humane life, and are willing to spend the time in colloquy for it.

You’ve still missed the point Buber and I are trying to make, though.  It is not politeness or spirituality, and certainly not passive acceptance of the oncoming disaster, that I’m recommending, though I can see why I might appear to be in that camp. I am not “eager to defend” what Brad was saying, though I confess I reacted a bit defensively to your aggressive repudiation of his possibly thoughtful and helpful comment.  I am trying to get us beyond the kind of fight that brought us the Iraq war, the declaration “If you’re not for us, you’re against us,” and on and on.  (Have you seen, anywhere, anything else than Us Versus Them?)

Did you, in college, ever get a chance to read Kuhn’s “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions”?  His idea of paradigm shift is sort of like what’s needed.  You surely have seen the perceptual demonstrations of gestalt shift. The problems we created at one level of thinking cannot be solved at that same level. As you said on Aug 2, “we need a general, systemic awakening!  The question is how to foment it?” But you seemed, in the later posts, to be participating in, and thereby supporting, the very level of thinking that got us into the environmental predicament, for it is the same one that got us into the current political impasse.  It is why there are greedy shortsighted capitalists.  That is the direct relationship between my ideas and the issues being discussed here. 

If you try answers to my questions – what is the preferred form of social /economic organization;  and what is the opposite of “magic”— there might arise between us an awareness of ways to shift out of Us Versus Them.  I’m not asking you to define your terms;  I’m asking us to notice the system of ideas we are all trapped in, the camps (“these types”) that we are forced into by the hegemonic conversation, which will replicate itself in almost every interaction we have.  Are the only alternatives for me “full-on defense of capitalism” or “ad hominem stratagems”?

If you are willing to continue to engage with me in a real game-changing exploration, I welcome the opportunity.  I do have an idea for a program. BTW, the hindu greeting is namaste.  Namaskar is the name of the series of yoga poses that comprise the Sun Salutation.  Am I one up yet?  Are you mad yet?